Anti AI Slop w/ Runbin Dong | Ep. 210 Pt.2

In this episode of Biz/Dev, we talk with Runbin Dong, founder of Scale Social AI, about what it looks like to take an AI-driven business to market right now, when the SaaS playbook is shifting and “authentic” is either real or it’s noise.

We get into building with intent, investing in yourself before anyone else does, taking full ownership when things get hard, and what it really means to start from scratch without pretending you’ve got it all figured out.

Runbin shares the mindset shifts founders need in this new landscape, the traps people fall into when they chase hype, and how to build something that actually earns attention, not just clicks.

Runbin on LinkedIn

Email Scale Social AI

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David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

[00:00:03] David: So is this, do you see scale social as your. This is your, your big idea or is this just one of many?

I get the vibe from you. You got serial entrepreneur written all over you.

[00:00:14] Runbin: Yeah, I really enjoyed the process of like solving problems and I think working on scale social was the first time I had to do that in the driver's seat.

I've been a part of early stage startups before and I think back to my time at PNE where I just had this really demanding CEOI was working for. His name is Danny. He now runs the same company, but he's managed to launch the fastest growing supplement brand in the world.

[00:00:41] David: Wow.

[00:00:42] Runbin: Yeah, he's done many things and at that point in time I was thinking, oh my gosh, what a, what a hard CEO to work for. And there were a lot of feelings being hurt. I was much younger and

couldn't understand it until working on scale social. You look at your burn, you look at your expenses, you look at everything that's a part of the business, and suddenly everything started to make sense. And so I enjoy that. I especially enjoy the, the notion of always sort of running experiments. And this is like the, the bit of a biomedical engineering me.

It's like, oh, it's like the scientific method all over again. You

learn it in elementary school, you forget it as an adult. So I'm sort of going back to that every single day. You have a hypothesis, you do like experiment. You, you gather data and then you revisit, right? Like that sounds like what we're doing every day. It's pretty cool.

[00:01:35] David: So, as I mentioned early on in, in the show right now everyone's talking about scale, social, which has gotta be a blast. If you were. To back up and someone asks you, Hey, I'd like to, I'd like to recreate what you're doing. Do you have any major moments that says, Hey, this is what I've captured. Like what did you do that captured the, the mind?

I mean, is this, it could be as simple as, well, we've been successful. That might be enough, but have there been any moments where you have said, Hey, I did this and this happened and I would recommend, you know, generically, does that make sense?

[00:02:11] Runbin: Yeah, I, I think I understand the question and I, I am very grateful that everyone is giving us a lot of credit. Thank you for that. I don't think we're successful. I don't think we are at the product market fit yet,

[00:02:25] David: Okay.

[00:02:26] Runbin: and we've pivoted many times in the past it was a very. Sort of a trials and tribulation kind of journey, even in that one year.

So imagine all of the learnings and all of the mistakes that we made compressing just one year. It's pretty painful.

[00:02:40] David: Yeah.

[00:02:41] Runbin: And so we built the wrong product. We had to burn it. The whole AI power thing, it just didn't work. So we built 

[00:02:47] David: you threw it out and started over. 

[00:02:49] Runbin: yeah. Like completely whiteboard, right? And one of the things I, I did was I tried to earn a dollar from my clients. I used to go to restaurants and say, Hey, can I do social media for you for a dollar every month? Like, I'll do the whole thing, like, whatever people charge you, like 3000, $5,000 per month. I'll do it for a dollar and not recommended. It's very painful. 

But in retrospect it's great because it allowed me to understand like where the like signal is and where the noise is. Then we realized very quickly that putting out social media posts was very noisy and we didn't want that. 'Cause that's what the first product was for building like AI powered social media posting. I guess why there

are like 10 startups that's working on that right now.

[00:03:36] David: Oh, I have no doubt. Yes, absolutely. So you realized. Early on. I mean, that's painful. Okay. So I mean, you hear about pivots, but you don't really think about the practical nature of a pivot. What I'm hearing you say is when we pivoted, we had to burn it all down and start over.

[00:03:54] Runbin: Yeah, it was a lot, a lot easier because it was just my co-founders and I, now where we are right now, pivoting is gonna be even more costly. Right?

And so actually it's very beneficial, again, just scientifically thinking it's better to do that early on than now. Which is why like a lot of VCs especially the VCs who have been operators themselves, they'll tell you like, don't raise money until you figure out like where the signal is. Otherwise it just gets really expensive very quickly.

[00:04:23] David: My question on that, and we can shift gears. So you're saying, Hey, your guys are telling you don't raise money until you've captured that. Market, at least the idea of it. So does that scare you? 'cause you have taken money now, but you still don't feel like you have market product, market fit. That sounds to me like somewhere deep in your heart, you know that a full burn down pivot is still possible. Or do you feel like you've gotten, you've solved it and that you don't feel like you, you're past that stage and that's why you took money? Or is that still, Hey guys, I'm sorry. Thanks for your money, but we gotta burn this down 'cause it's, we got a better idea and that's a horrible way of saying it.

We've learned and we're gonna improve. Yeah.

[00:05:02] Runbin: It's a great question because finding that signal and eliminating the noise again in that theme is not cut and dry, right?

Like it's not black and white. And so like what we're able to prove so far is people wanna identify that there's a problem. Two people are willing to give us like a six figure check 

[00:05:22] David: Yeah. 

[00:05:22] Runbin: make that problem go away.

And so we're like, okay, there's something there. Then it's a matter of, okay, well can this thing repeat? Can we build a system that allows this to repeat? Let, let's say I get hit by a bus tomorrow. Can the company continue to do what it does? Which means I need to have a system in place without rubbin? And then what does that look like financially? If. The answer is yes on those regards, right? And so it's just another experiment but in a slightly different fashion. And then there's a secondary question around are these the right channels? Like a lot of our early business came in because they saw us through a podcast like this, or they came referred by friends and family or you know, other business owners. And those are incredibly powerful. But that's not how you get to five, $10 million. Right. And 

[00:06:17] David: that's a consulting business, right? I mean that's that if you're living off referrals with software that don't work, that doesn't scale. I mean, that's a consulting business. That's how we build, right? 

[00:06:29] Runbin: That's exactly

right. And so then how do we think about getting people's attention? How do we generate conversations that are meaningful, practical, and that that trust builds trust? Quickly, and, and those are all things that we're literally going through right now.

[00:06:47] David: So here's, here's a a, a selfish question 'cause I'm somewhat in that, in the pre stages of that with Teela. At what point? 'cause when you first get started. Friends, family, referrals, whatever you, you know, you just want those first few customers. But and, and that's fine. That's not a bad thing. At what point do you look at yourself in the mirror and say, this is all I'm getting.

The website isn't working. What? You know what I'm saying? It takes founder led sales only to make this work that's not scalable, et cetera, et cetera. At what point do you look yourself in the mirror and go, yeah, this, even if you're finding moderate success with that founder led stuff where you're like, this really ain't working.

Like that's gotta be a tough morning right there.

[00:07:28] Runbin: Yeah, and I don't think that dynamic will ever go away. The most efficient type of sales is founder-led sales.

[00:07:36] David: Sure.

[00:07:37] Runbin: And if my time is not really worth that much, then it's also the most cost effective method.

[00:07:43] David: Yep.

[00:07:43] Runbin: Right? And, and, and I think it's necessary. Like when founders get involved, there's this magical pixie dust that

appears in these conversations and you just can't replace that.

And so then the question is, can you implement a system in place that sort of tries to mimic. That without being disingenuous.

[00:08:02] David: Mm.

[00:08:03] Runbin: Right? And can that system operate at a 70 to 80% efficiency, relatively speaking,

[00:08:10] David: Sure.

[00:08:10] Runbin: and, and we're learning a lot of sort of hard lessons as we're building that out, right? So the whole premise behind raising the prese last November so November to now it's been two months. It's building up that system and then. Implementing and scaling it out and then seeing what comes back. And so we haven't announced this publicly, but we're gonna skip seed round and get into a Series A directly. And part of that conversation, you know, involves building a proper system that just scales.

[00:08:45] David: That's the scalable version of that. 

[00:08:48] Runbin: Yep. 

[00:08:48] David: Wow. That's, that's that decision to skip that round. Is ballsy, right? Because you're, you're basically saying, I figured this out. Now it's time for the real money.

[00:09:00] Runbin: I think we grew at a pace where we, by the time we finished the pre-seed, we kind of hit somewhat quasi seed metrics. And then there's a secondary matter where, you know, if you're talking to investors, they'll say, Hey, by the way, like the valuations are completely out of the whack. Everyone knows that. And then two the benchmark for a seed and series A has increased significantly because you have

outsized sort of players that's

pulling the average up, 

[00:09:28] David: those out 10% of gazillions of dollars. Yeah.

[00:09:31] Runbin: That's right.

[00:09:32] David: Yeah. It's funny money.

[00:09:33] Runbin: Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, like I think we just have to make a decision that's gonna be good for both the company and our investors. And so the le less dilution we experience, the better. It's for everyone.

[00:09:45] David: That's very cool. All right, Gary, change our subject.

[00:09:49] Gary: Well, maybe Matt can put this into the earlier segment we were talking about the actual social media. But so my question is that you're using AI to help you determine whether or not the user generated content is going to be good, soso or bad. And you said you're doing that based on the analytics of, of that place, the time, the content itself.

Are you also using AI to kind of. Figure out and maybe like decipher the algorithms so that the output is determining what's gonna be working and what's not gonna be working as you move forward. 'cause I know those change in a blink of an eye too.

[00:10:24] Runbin: Yeah. So we are in active conversations with by dance or now TikTok. The ownership changed

[00:10:30] David: Which one I was about say is, is this the US version now? All right.

[00:10:34] Runbin: and so, what's really interesting is, you know, if you look at the core of our business, we're kind of, we sit kind, kind of upstream from the distribution layer, right? So meta Google TikTok, they're very good at distributing content,

right? Getting it in front of people.

And what we, yeah, just a little bit and

what we've sort of, ended up specializing in is trying to figure out what kind of content resonates before even it, it even hits the distribution layer. And that's very meaningful because the way that digital marketing has always worked is you, you sort of do this

[00:11:10] David: Yeah.

[00:11:11] Runbin: and 

[00:11:12] Gary: very like emotionally based in a weird way.

[00:11:15] Runbin: And you're placing a bet, right? And, and if you're not very sophisticated, you might put all of your money into one hero content like a Superbowl bowl ad content, right? But there's a lot of sophistication in determining what actually resonates, all the testing that happens, but that's beside the topic, so that there's a hero content approach. And then if you're more sophisticated, you might have 10 pieces of smaller content that you will ab test,

[00:11:39] Gary: Yeah.

[00:11:39] Runbin: right? That's like the best practice. Guess what? You're still in a position where you're literally throwing stuff against the wall and see what sticks, right? But what if we can help you determine what resonates well, because we get a lot of that data back from the distribution layer, right? That's why inspirations and trending and everything is a thing,

[00:12:01] Gary: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Runbin: but then utilizing that as a dyma dynamic, real-time feedback to actually capture the content that works really well. Recognizing that the criteria for what performs changes in real time.

[00:12:16] Gary: Now do you offer, like if the the person using the app to create the content, do you offer suggestions or hints or, or any kind of guidance for them prior to them making the content? Okay, cool.

[00:12:29] Runbin: Yes. It's like having a AI director in front of you.

[00:12:33] David: Hmm. The, my, my technical brain is trying to wrap my head around that. That's awesome. And this, I mean, we spoke, me and you, gosh, oh, a year or so ago, and you were still very much in the early social media stages when we were chatting.

So All

[00:12:51] Runbin: coffee, I

[00:12:52] David: that's right. A caribou 

[00:12:54] Runbin: A caribou 

[00:12:54] David: that's, right. That's right. So. You're what you had then, which you were talking about earlier, your social media version and what you're just describing now is light years apart

[00:13:07] Runbin: Yes.

[00:13:08] David: are, are you saying that you and your team got from A to B through trial and error, or was there a moment of brilliance, for lack of a better term, right?

Like, oh, this is a much better idea, or did you incrementally change the idea to get to where you are? Does that make sense?

[00:13:26] Runbin: I love to say that we're all really smart people. We're not.

[00:13:30] David: I feel that.

[00:13:32] Runbin: The other unique characteristic of scale social is none of the people on the founding team had any digital marketing background.

[00:13:39] David: Nice.

[00:13:41] Gary: That's almost brilliant right there. Yeah. 

[00:13:44] David: Well,

[00:13:44] Runbin: So don't tell our 

[00:13:45] Gary: to make

[00:13:46] David: in two ways.

[00:13:47] Gary: authentic content that resonates with people. Yeah. It's almost better to have someone who's not looking for specific things. 

[00:13:54] Runbin: Yeah,

[00:13:55] David: but you could

also say, man, it should be nice to have someone who knew what they were doing in here.

[00:13:58] Gary: I am just trying to compliment him. David, he seems to be doing pretty well.

[00:14:02] Runbin: so in

front of our clients. 

[00:14:05] David: don't. But I mean that, that to me is more impressive because you did do that without that experience. So it was just you. Yeah. That could have gone real bad. 

[00:14:15] Runbin: We

really, really specialized on two things. One, we said we're not experts, so who are we to say what works, what doesn't? So there's no baggage. There's no ego, there's

no, like, I don't care. Let the data speak. And then two, we got really, really good at running like literally tens if not hundreds of micro experiments that allowed us to continue to tune, fine tune our, where we should play like that.

That whole last year. Was that like, what do we build? Who do we go after? Who's our ICP? How much price, like how much do we charge?

I've

charged anything between a a dollar. To a six figure contract. Right? And so like there's just a lot of space in between. And so I think, again, experiment.

[00:15:07] David: Okay. But I, the, here's a really practical question. So you, you have a theory and you need to try 10 things to prove out your theory. Where did you get 10 people to try it out on? Like those initial customers, like they're not coming into your door. They don't know you exist. They don't care. 

So how did you get enough people in the door that you could experiment on?

[00:15:26] Runbin: Our sample size is not, not that great. I think a lot of it is really just being able to pause in just a tiny client interaction and sort of figure out like what was said and then what was not said. And you can glean a lot of insights from those conversations. So we just got very, very good at just trying to listen. It sounds very. I don't know, cliche at this point,

[00:15:52] David: No, I,

it's still a skill that most people don't have.

[00:15:56] Gary: So it's not like you were experimenting with 10 different variations of the same content being pushed out to 10 different industries. You were just trying to focus on that specific content and then make minor iterations until it performed better. Okay, that makes 

[00:16:09] Runbin: because one, we didn't have the infrastructure and two, we couldn't afford to experiment it on clients.

Like unless it's something we can back. So for

[00:16:17] Gary: But you could tweak the content all day long and see what hits. 

[00:16:20] Runbin: Yeah.

So for example, like I'll give you a really good example here. Back in the days we said, okay, well if you sign up, scale social, we're gonna give you short phone videos made for you branded and it will land in the ad campaign, right? So we did four videos every month and then clients came back, they're like, Ugh, this is a lot.

I don't want to deal with this. So it became two right? Then we're like, okay, maybe this is a good sequence. And then yet, at the end of the day, we realized by our own data that if you split the app budget across two videos, it actually underperforms compared to if you have more budget for one video makes sense.

'cause you know that's how platforms work. They want you to spend more money on a per video basis. So we said, okay, well we have enough numbers to back up what we want to do. So then it became one video. But then clients are like, Hmm, actually I wanted to see more variation. So now we're back to three videos, but three videos AB tested in one ad budget, right? And so it's just that constant sort of maneuvering to figure out like what sticks, what doesn't stick. But it's, you know, informed by the data that we have.

[00:17:27] David: Hmm. I think it, man, I'm, it's hard to qua, qualify, quantify. It's a cool word, what you're saying because most. And I'm including myself in this. Most builders, most founders, they build their idea and they now are have stakes behind said idea. And

you're coming at this from a data forward way of saying. Again, I'm really doing a bad job explaining, but it's really fascinating to hear this because founders don't lead this way and I can see why people are excited to see what you're gonna come up with next. 'cause you're thinking regardless of whether, and it would, I wouldn't be surprised if it if scale social changes again. But I think it's gonna change in the same way in that you're gonna go where the data to lead you. I will tell you, I am leading where my software takes me and hoping the data follows. Right, and I promise that's how most founders are, and it doesn't sound nearly as cool as your way.

[00:18:33] Runbin: Well, I'm

not sure about that, but I can absolutely resonate with that though, because I was trained professionally as a product manager, and one of the things that I habitually have done is I fell in love with my product, and I think this is where bootstrapping helped. So.

[00:18:51] Gary: Yeah.

[00:18:52] Runbin: you have stake, like you're spending money every month. 

And I have to answer to my wife, like, Hey sweetie, we have a five month runway and it's all our money, no one else's, right? And so survival became number one priority. And because survival was a number one priority, making money is number one priority. And because making money is number one priority, it forces you to not fall in love with your product, but to fall in love with your customers.

[00:19:18] David: Man, we need to turn that into a t-shirt right there. That's good stuff right there, but it, it is inter I, whenever I mentor or whatever. I always encourage, and you don't hear it about it as much, but when I started Big Pixel we're almost 13. Most of the startups were stuck in the Twitter world, meaning I'm gonna build a huge user base and then find money. You don't find that as much, but it's still there where I encourage everybody, you need to go to money, revenue, fast. People, it doesn't, if you've raised money, great. There's no one gets mad if they gave you money that you're making revenue, but you've gotta make sure you're, you have a way. Because if a lot of people just skip that, I just, I have this cool idea and I wanna see if this idea is any good. Not, doesn't make money. And I know that sounds so lame, but dude, money, money's important. 

[00:20:14] Runbin: It is a great

[00:20:14] David: your oxygen. 

[00:20:16] Runbin: Yeah.

And, and it, it telegraphs whether someone really wants it. That's why we did a dollar. Right. Like they, it's painful enough for someone to have to fork over a credit card.

[00:20:25] David: Yes. It's just get the plastic out. That's right. Chip Kennedy, who was on our podcast a long time ago, not, I guess a while ago, he is running a startup and I, I love Chip. Everyone loves Chip 'cause he's just so nice. But he told me flat out, he goes, can I give you some unsolicited advice? I said, sure, of course you can. He goes, charge money. As soon as you can. And I go, what? And he goes, you need feedback more than you need the money. But the feedback you get when they give you money is a thousand times better. And I can tell 

[00:20:57] Runbin: a great advice. 

[00:20:58] David: is. I can tell you we've given our product away up to this point for free,

and people just don't care.

They will. Use it when they think about it, but they have no skin in the game. They don't, they're lovely people, and I think, I love all my pilots, please don't get me wrong, but it's, it's an after effect. Why? Because they, they have no skin in the game. 

[00:21:16] Runbin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:17] David: a dollar matters. 'cause they had to go through the rigmarole of pulling it out and swiping it and trusting you, right? That you're not gonna screw them over even for that dollar.

It matters, man. It matters that, that, that one has really stuck with me very, very much 

[00:21:33] Runbin: Yeah, and after Stripe processing fees, I think you keep 30 cents, but that's still pretty good.

[00:21:38] Gary: Yeah, that's true.

[00:21:40] David: I, I have seen on that same note, I can't tell you how many startups we've worked with and advised that did not realize that Apple took 30%.

[00:21:49] Runbin: Oh gosh, yeah.

[00:21:51] David: And when they do, and that's not especially,

[00:21:53] Gary: Screaming at us. What happened?

[00:21:55] David: They're, they're typically older than younger 'cause younger people are dating digital natives.

Right. But if you're a 40 plus year old founder for the first time, you don't realize that. And they're saying, well, we're gonna charge our guys $5 and that's gonna be, and we've done the math and blah, blah, blah. And then you realize, dude, hold up 30% just vanished 'cause you're a digital product. And they're like, what?

What? And they're like, yeah, your entire thing just fell apart and,

and suddenly, yeah. 

[00:22:21] Runbin: gotta do. 

[00:22:22] David: know that they take 30%, it's it's a big deal.

[00:22:25] Gary: So to wrap this up. Out of your experience building this, what would you say are your top three pieces of advice that you would give to a new startup or a new builder?

[00:22:37] Runbin: Hmm, I think we covered some of those.

[00:22:39] Gary: I'm sure we 

[00:22:40] David: Yeah. 

[00:22:41] Runbin: So top advice build something, even if you don't have a product,

do the job first. So my $1 thing that was all run manually on meta Google, meta Business Suite and Google, whatever, and Canva,

[00:22:58] David: Nice. 

[00:22:59] Runbin: right? So, so I was the AI behind the scenes and it turns out most of your clients don't care whether it's AI or not.

They just want something to go away and are they willing to pay a dollar? The reason. For that. I'm a huge believer for first two things that don't scale 'cause you can build a system without really knowing the intimate details of what you're actually looking for. And so because you manually go through the motion of actually solving the problem, you have a very, very clear idea of what the pain point really is, right?

So I actually think it's very there's a tremendous amount of hubris for people to think that they know what the problem is until you actually do the job. Like I grew up in a restaurant environment. If you're gonna mop the floor, I'll use washing dishes. I thought machines, washing dishes, great until you have to work as a child in a Chinese buffet washing just endless streams of dishes.

There's a huge dish machine washer over there, right? Guess what? You still have to scrape out all the food, and when things get crazy, all the chemical gets into your glove. And it just, it's painful. So anyway, to wrap up the first tip, it's, it's do the things, do, do, do the hard work Two run experiments.

Just, you know, don't, don't be too stuck up on what you are looking to do, but rather let the data speak to you. A lot of times I see founders or startups being launched. Without really having a great way to measure. Now, if you can't measure what works and what doesn't work, then you are sort of flying the, in the in, in the dark. And so having the destination, and if you will, the signals necessary for you to determine whether you're heading in the right direction or not, that's critical. And then the third tip is just try to make a dollar, because it's a lot easier to then convince someone to pay $10 from that $1 basis than trying to get someone to pay you $10 when they started with $0.

[00:25:04] David: So let me, let me challenge that one just for a second. I have always been told it's really hard to raise prices, and you're kind of saying the opposite. Hey, I now $10. You did pay a dollar. You haven't found any, any fight against that.

[00:25:19] Runbin: That's why I anchored it at $1, because most of the people, if not all of the people would be, it would be completely absurd for them to believe that something that they would typically pay 3000, $5,000 per month for, that they're getting for a dollar.

[00:25:34] David: Yeah, sure.

[00:25:35] Runbin: It's so

[00:25:36] David: So It's So ridiculous. Yeah. 

[00:25:37] Runbin: Yeah. 

That they have to assume the value is greater than that.

[00:25:41] David: Man that's got a Alex Hermo vibe to it, but All right. Alright. Alright.

[00:25:45] Runbin: Yeah. Or you can do 99 cents because you know

[00:25:48] David: It's psychologically better,

[00:25:50] Gary: All right, bin. Well, if anybody wants to reach out, learn more about you or about scale, social, 

[00:25:56] David: I. 

[00:25:56] Gary: can they find you?

[00:25:57] Runbin: Yeah. They can reach out to me at hello@scalesocialai.com. We will be changing our domain name soon. But right now it's that. Hello, at scale social ai.com.

[00:26:09] Gary: Is it gonna be skill, social.ai?

[00:26:12] Runbin: Yeah,

[00:26:13] Gary: Really?

[00:26:14] Runbin: we, yeah, we found a really

good deal. Apparently the other domain, someone's sitting on it and they want like millions of dollars for it. We're like,

[00:26:21] David: Dude,

I still don't 

[00:26:23] Gary: talk 

[00:26:23] Runbin: my investors did not underwrite for that. 

[00:26:25] Gary: Exactly.

[00:26:26] David: dude, I've been wanting big pixel.com. It's just a squatter forever, and

they won't even answer my emails. Like I don't even know how much it would cost. That's, I'm sure it's stupid, but

[00:26:36] Runbin: I have a 

[00:26:37] David: I don't even 

know. 

[00:26:37] Runbin: We went through

[00:26:38] David: Oh, yeah. 

[00:26:39] Runbin: Yep. And the domain broker was so good. They know exactly how to approach this, so

[00:26:45] David: Interesting. All right. All right. Fair enough. Man, this was so much fun. I knew it would be, I knew it would be before we even started, but it was more fun than I even thought. Thank you so much. This has been great.

[00:26:56] Gary: Yeah, it was very 

[00:26:58] Runbin: been, it's been a lot fun for me as well.

[00:27:00] David: Well, on that note, we will begrudgingly end this podcast. Thank you again for joining us. We will be back next week.

[00:27:07] Gary: See you.

[00:27:09] Runbin: Bye.