Forged in Fire w/ Jon Gamble | Ep. 201

This week we’re joined by Jon Gamble, Co-Founder and CTO of Fordje — and the sole developer taking on one of the biggest pain points in construction. Jon’s building the AI platform that finally makes sense of the country’s building codes, cutting through the delays and roadblocks that cost developers billions every year.

Jon’s the kind of founder who cares about the real problem underneath the noise. 

We talk about the grind of being a one-person engineering team, the weight of fixing an issue everyone overlooks, and what drives someone to take on a challenge this big.

LINKS:

Jon on LinkedIn

Fordje on LinkedIn

Fordje Website

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David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Jon: We didn't have a sales guy, so

We're all learning sales now and it's just a,

just a joy. 

[00:00:04] David: Joy. It's a joy. That's the right word. Sales is a joy.

[00:00:11] David: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Biz Dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host joined Peru by Mr. Gary Void. What's up, man?

[00:00:20] Gary: Hey, how you guys doing?

[00:00:22] David: Good good. More importantly, 'cause I'm tired of talking to Gary already, we are joined by John Gamble, who is the co-founder and CTO of Forge. Which is a development company in construction. So it's another nerd and I'm very excited about that. How are you, John?

[00:00:40] Jon: I'm great. How are y'all?

[00:00:42] David: Good. Good. We're gonna ask you some very piercing questions 

[00:00:46] Gary: Hard hitting,

[00:00:47] David: Hard hitting journalistic questions. All right, John. Here we go. Beaches or Mountain?

[00:00:53] Jon: Oh, I'm a beach guy.

[00:00:55] David: Beach guy. Yeah. You live in North Carolina, which you can have both.

[00:00:59] Jon: the kids. we take the kids down to the outer banks for at least three weeks a year.

[00:01:04] David: Oh wow. Nice.

Alright, Gary, I know you're a 

[00:01:08] Jon: yep. I'm a fishing nut. 

[00:01:10] David: fishing, see.

Okay, so that, what's the second question? 'cause outer banks is more fishing than sitting around with umbrellas 

[00:01:18] Gary: they're surfing.

[00:01:18] David: beach chairs. No, there's not.

[00:01:21] Jon: Absolutely. Yeah. I take my truck out on the beach and we're surf fishing for red drum as often as I can, which is less now, but we'll get back.

[00:01:31] David: Alright, next hard hitting question. 'cause of the time of year, it is Christmas decorations before or after Thanksgiving.

[00:01:38] Jon: After.

[00:01:40] David: All right. We

can talk 

[00:01:41] Jon: hundred percent after, 

[00:01:43] Gary: you. 

[00:01:43] David: he is 

[00:01:44] Jon: Thanksgiving's gotta be able to breathe.

[00:01:46] David: Dude, we my wife would love you. She's very sad. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday and she's very sad that Thanksgiving is getting crushed out. We were at church last weekend and the pastor asked how many people have already decorated, and it's early November for those when we're recording here. And I would guess a good. Quarter of the church raised their hands. I was floored. I was like, really? You guys aren't allowed here anymore? You have to leave. Alright, last one. Books versus podcasts.

[00:02:18] Jon: That's a tough one.

[00:02:19] Gary: You don't have a shelf full of podcasts behind you.

[00:02:22] Jon: That's true. I do,

I love reading a physical book still. 

I just picked up a

[00:02:28] David: not even a digital 

[00:02:29] Jon: I knew it had to be a physical book.

[00:02:31] David: Oh no, I 

[00:02:32] Jon: It's a paperback. 

[00:02:33] David: It's been a long time.

So now the question, now that Gary brought it up, do you, have you actually read the books that are behind you?

[00:02:40] Jon: Yep. Yep.

[00:02:42] David: I have several, not, I don't have 'em here. My home office, I have a bookcase with probably 20 books I am sad to say, I don't think I've read any of them. I bought them

and I had every 

[00:02:53] Jon: yeah I can confidently say I've read at least 90% of those.

[00:02:56] David: Nice. He's well, more educated than I am. Alright, I feel like I know you now. I can interview you now. Here we go.

Tell me about Forge. First off, I gotta 

[00:03:07] Jon: Yeah. 

[00:03:08] David: you, where'd that name come from?

[00:03:10] Jon: So when we started out, we were thinking of working with both city governments and construction firms. And it's we were thinking it would be the place where cities could craft their ordinance in platform. We could pull insights from other places. So it was like. You would forge your zoning codes and municipal codes and everything in platform. That's where the name came from and we've pivoted since then. So it 

The name stuck and the idea didn't.

[00:03:43] David: It reminds me of I went to Texas a and m to for college and when their fight song is all about beating UT Texas University and, when they left and went to the SEC, they didn't play them anymore. So they decide, they asked the kids the students at the time, do we need to change our fight song? And the answer was a resounding no. So for years up till now, I guess they're starting to play them again. I think they were singing about a team that they never even played. So it's very, and that's the most a and m thing ever. But anyway. So you are A CTO. Did you join initially? 'cause and I, let me preface that question. I know there are so many founders who are desperate for A CTO, just desperate. They feel they need to have one and they feel incomplete without one. And I agree that they're very important, but I don't think they're make or break. But were you guys together or were you found later?

[00:04:36] Jon: Yeah, no, I had worked with my co-founders previously. So we all knew each other. We were the three founding members. So you'll notice none of us have the founder, title. Title. We're all co-founder.

'Cause we were. Definitely a three-headed beast that, it was, for me, it was important to find the team and then find the problem.

So we knew we worked well together. Knew that, we had all come from the clean tech space, so we wanted to make an impact in, on the clean tech space and the built environment. So we kinda pooled our collective talents and found a problem that seemed hair on fire.

[00:05:18] David: Are you the classic triumvirate of the sales guy, the business guy, and the tech guy?

[00:05:24] Jon: No, we don't, we didn't have a sales guy, so

We're all learning sales now and it's just a,

just a joy.

[00:05:30] David: joy. It's a

joy. That's the right word. Sales is a

joy. 

[00:05:34] Gary: that's a similar story to a lot of the people in the companies that we've interviewed. 

[00:05:39] David: Sales is something. So we are building our first startup. Internally. And so we're sitting on the other side of the table now where we're doing the ICP, which is ideal customer profile and figuring out how to sell this thing and just really early, early days. And that's a side of the table that I just now, I've done sales, obviously Big pixel we sell, right? But that's just a different beast and it's tricky business man. It's tricky 

[00:06:07] Jon: It is. I've, earlier in my career, I did a lot of freelance. So I've sold services like,

Hey, here's my time. Give me money for it. Selling a SaaS platform is a whole different beast.

[00:06:21] David: I've always said that selling a widget of any sort, whether it's physical or software, is easier. I still stand by that. 'cause I think to me, to sell a service, if you haven't done it before, it's really hard. It's not a widget that you can describe and understand. It's something that you have to do. But now that I'm on the other side of the table and I'm learning about it and how, and I'm noodling and how do I wanna sell this thing, it's still hard.

It's just different. Hard, 

[00:06:46] Jon: It is. It is. Yeah. And, trying to get the customers to the aha moment, 'cause we're looking at it, 24/7 we're like, oh yeah we ran into this issue before. We know other people are running into it. Let's build this. And, it should be, oh yeah, of course I need this.

I can't live without this. But walking them through that, that aha moment. On platform when we're doing a demo. That's hard, but also really powerful when you get it right.

[00:07:15] David: So I'm gonna come from an angle of I want to start a SaaS platform. I've got an idea I want to go. So let me back you up. You're about two years old, right?

[00:07:27] Jon: Yep.

[00:07:28] David: Let me back you up to those early days when, 'cause you're the only developer on the team. The other two are business guys. Is that right?

[00:07:36] Jon: Correct. Yeah.

[00:07:37] David: Okay. Especially early on. Okay, so it's you. And so I can imagine this scenario, they're like, we have this great idea, go build it. And now they're like, what do I do? Okay. When did you have enough of a product that you could take it to market? How far along? Like how much of it was built and how much of it was an idea.

[00:07:59] Jon: Yeah, so we started kicking ideas around April of last year. We went full-time end of June last year. And then I had a beta product available for September.

So

i, had done machine learning and deep tech stuff before, working with LLMs was, fairly new

for everyone.

So a lot of my time was researching, rag architecture and how to use LLMs and

[00:08:33] David: When they were pretty crappy back then. If you're going that far back. They would just lie to you all the time.

[00:08:39] Jon: Yeah.

[00:08:40] Gary: It's funny that you say that far back and it's literally 

[00:08:43] David: Sure. It's not like we're talking decades here.

We're talking like 18 months. Yeah,

[00:08:47] Jon: absolutely. Yeah. And like the context window was tiny,

[00:08:50] David: Yeah. Four characters. Yeah.

[00:08:52] Jon: yeah, it was really hard. So

yeah, a lot of it's just research.

[00:08:57] David: early on, I remember when we were just starting to scratch surface of AI and what the heck is this thing? We had a client who had written books in his industry. He was well known in his industry. He'd written several books and he is I would like a bot. This is what everyone wanted.

That, it's like talking to me, right? Can answer all the questions of my book. And so I uploaded the book to the bot. Now we're talking like I embedded it, did all the fancy stuff at the time,

[00:09:22] Jon: Yep.

[00:09:22] David: and it just could not do it. It just fell over flat. And another one was, okay, I'm gonna take an entire table. Just one table in the database and I'm gonna upload it. I turned into a big JSON document, upload it, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna ask a simple question. Who is the newest user in this data? Every time I ask that, I get a different answer. 

[00:09:44] Jon: Yep. 

[00:09:45] David: I'm like, this is so dumb. And I was so frustrated for so long.

That's how dumb these bots were. 'cause, and for the non nerds out there, the reason why they couldn't answer is 'cause the context window the amount of understanding they could grab at one point in time was so small that every time I would ask it, it would grab a chunk of the data and give me the newest user for that chunk anyway. So that was about the time you're building a whole new company on ai. 

[00:10:09] Jon: Correct. 

[00:10:10] David: How, did you not just cry.

[00:10:12] Jon: There was definitely some crying.

Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:10:16] David: vulnerability there. Nice.

[00:10:17] Jon: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Some crying in the early days. It forced me really to dive into how things were working.

And really get a deep understanding of what was happening in, the ETL pipeline that's processing the data, how it's storing the data, how it's retrieving the data, being able.

So I honestly, I think it helped me a lot now that the models are more powerful and you can. Feed a million tokens into a context window and the needle in a haystack works a lot better now. So we've been able to grow and get better, as the models have gotten better, but the core foundation of good software kind of prevails in the end.

[00:11:00] David: There's a lot of people building AI software, so this is where a lot of these questions are coming from. I'm imagining like you've been doing this basically for as long as ai, generative ai, I should say. Not AI in general, but what we call AI now has been around about two years. 

[00:11:15] Jon: yeah, 

[00:11:16] David: How. Often do you just like the model has changed so dramatically, I might as well start over.

Is that's, that poll's gotta be there.

[00:11:25] Jon: a little bit. We get a lot of those defensibility questions from folks that have more of a surface level. Knowledge of how gen AI works, it's the old adage of, poop in, poop out. It's. The ai, the concept of AI is not new. My dad was a mechanical engineer.

He reme at Georgia Tech and he remembers working on like the basics of AI when he was in school, years ago. So it's, machine learning has been a discipline for a long time. So it's

really cutting into what is the fundamental thing that's happening? And that helps a lot. So like the Gen AI is a fancy tool and for a lot of folks, right?

It's a black magic box where

you put in something and you magically get an answer. It's AI's not magic, it's just abstracted a lot now, so people don't see what's happening. But that's, that, that's the defensibility.

[00:12:28] David: It is amazing to me though, 'cause I mean there's some very smart people. I hesitate to credit Sam Altman for anything, but there are a lot of smart people that are doing what I think has changed in such a subtle way 'cause it's invisible to the non-technical person, is how we originally if you back up, the AI was basically a really fancy auto com.

Lead it would guess the next word. And it was very good at that. And it sounded it for a little while. People, it's on live and it wasn't, it's still not, and it's still not there. It's not intelligent. It's just really good at predicting what you want it to say. But then something changed. If you give them a picture of an x-ray. It can read that x-ray for you, that is no longer an auto complete, that is something else. And they've been adding that kind of functionality secretly. Not secretly, but secret to the user. You don't realize it's happening about almost every subject on the planet. And we have something very different now than what we did have, and it's all based off of that.

But that to me is so fascinating.

[00:13:32] Jon: It is, yeah. The speed of innovation in this space. Everyone with a PhD is researching this now. It's

either this or, quantum computing.

That's, 

where all the PhDs are.

[00:13:44] David: All the money and the PhDs. Yeah.

[00:13:46] Jon: yeah, and I, for me, I look back to when I started writing software years ago, it was when PHP was getting popular and there was a lot of open source knowledge that people were like, Hey, look at this cool thing that I built. Look how I did it, and. The coolest part for me with this kind of gen AI boom is people are back to that now. They're open sourcing everything, and they're like, Hey, I did this cool thing. Check out exactly how I did it. Here's the code. And I've learned so much from the open source community, everyone's just excited and nerding out about it. It's been a lot of fun.

[00:14:23] David: There's definitely a level of excitement, but also a level of fear, I think. Like how do you as a software developer handle the fact that everyone tells you that you're obsolete? How does that make you feel every day? I say that as the guy who 

[00:14:38] Jon: Yeah I've been running infrastructure for long enough and I've seen what ai, I use cloud code every day

and it. Is not going to spin up my entire cloud infrastructure and make sure it's running and it's not gonna answer, the page at two o'clock in the morning from a user doing something crazy. When AWS falls over and, are you multi-cloud? Are you multi-region? You, there's a lot of stuff that you can't fit in that context window still. So yeah, I think it's allowing, for me, especially as a solo dev I get, I have Claude code where I'm basically paying a hundred bucks a month for a junior engineer and it's great, it makes my

[00:15:21] David: You're, oh man, you get away from it for five a hundred. My current cursor bill, for me alone was $575 last month. I don't even know what happened. I,

Nope, 

[00:15:33] Gary: It seems like John's just a better coder than you are.

[00:15:36] David: that there's an ongoing joke because if you look at my numbers for cursor, we use cursor.

You lose my numbers versus everyone else. Now I am using it more than most.

I will say that, but everyone else is like costing me like 50 bucks and I'm 500, literally $500. And the decision we have made is they're just way more efficient at it than I am. I'm just beating it to death with every stupid prompt known demand until it does what I want it to do. And my guys are like, here is some magically crafted context.

Get me an answer. And it's here

[00:16:08] Gary: Yeah. In other words, they're using full sentences and you're putting prompts in no, fix 

[00:16:14] David: like this.

Just keep banging 

[00:16:16] Jon: Yeah. Oh, I was there. 

I 

was there. Yeah. 'cause I

I started using Cursor when it came out as well. I still pay for Cursor as well. It's nice to have kind of two different tools to bounce off of each other.

But yeah I've gotten really good at Claude has helped me a lot with planning.

So I'll sit there and I'll spend a, four hours building a, an implementation plan. And then it's really easy from there to be like, Hey, go implement this specific piece in this specific file, use these standards that we've already built into the code base. And it does a really good job of outputting, 90% of what I want and then I can go in to VS code and tweak it to my heart's desire.

And, yeah it's definitely an art form, I think, to limiting the usage.

[00:17:15] AD: BigPixel builds world class custom software and amazing apps. Our team of pros puts passion into every one of our projects. Our design infused development leans heavily on delivering a great experience for our clients and their clients. From startups to enterprises, we can help craft your ideas into real world products that help your business do better business. 

[00:17:43] Gary: I have a question for you, John, if you're using AI to help you build forge, but are you're using AI in Forge as a product as well to help find answers for developers and stuff like that when they're looking up city codes? I would imagine that the information you're getting for the codes and stuff, the databases and stuff that you're, i'm assuming if it's government related, city related, it's probably not the cleanest data. You're probably not getting the most accurate results at first. So how hard was that to try to pull that together in a way that's gonna give you the more accurate answers for the developers more often?

[00:18:22] Jon: For sure. Yeah. It's very disparate information, so every, city, county, state can publish, it's, we're dealing with public. It's basically the law, right? The ordinances are the law. But they just have a mandate that they have to publish them. It doesn't say how they have to publish them, where they have to publish them.

So there's a lot of platforms that they'll use to house. So we have to be very nimble in how we ingest that data so that we can, feed it through our a TL pipeline and get it. Cleaned and in a repeatable fashion. I think I've probably iterated on our data models, so many times by

now. 

[00:19:07] David: many FTP servers do you have to log in to get that data? 

[00:19:10] Jon: say that one more time. 

[00:19:12] David: old school? How many FTP servers do you have to go and grab their data? That's my favorite. Have you had to do that? Have they, 

[00:19:17] Jon: I haven't had to pull anything off. FTP.

[00:19:20] David: Oh, dude, you're lucky. I've been given. Here's our data for three hours. We will allow you to log in and download this one gig file and of course their internet is trash, so download and it takes half the day. Oh my gosh. See, I'm old. See you. At least you passed past that. I'm not as 

[00:19:38] Jon: Oh I remember back when I used to ship websites, it was, there was no CICD pipeline. 

There was a, Hey, here's the FTP SFTP.

[00:19:47] David: Dragon Drop. I wanna move that file.

Yes 

[00:19:49] Jon: Yep. 

[00:19:50] Gary: overwrite folders and make sure you didn't miss one

[00:19:53] Jon: Oh yeah,

[00:19:54] David: Oh yeah. It's override

right? That's,

that was the magic time. It's like override always. And what could go wrong here?

[00:20:02] Jon: Yep. FileZilla. Gotta love it.

[00:20:05] David: I do love Fi Zow. I still have files. Zillow,

I even paid for Pro because I was using it so much. Anyway, sorry.

[00:20:11] Gary: What was the one FTP program back in the day? It was like a little box truck was the logo. I'm trying to 

[00:20:17] David: Oh, transit

[00:20:18] Gary: Transit. 

[00:20:19] David: that was made by Coda. That was I, that was my pre Mac days. And that was like, I would look at their stuff and that's so cool. Their stuff is so pretty. It's got a little truck. I've gotta get this. So I got a Mac, I bought their software and it was trash. I'm like, gimme FileZilla. I'm

sorry. So

sorry. Sorry for all the developers who made transit. So we beat around the bush, but tell me, what does Forge actually do?

[00:20:42] Jon: Yeah. So we're at. At the base level, we're a data platform where we take in all of the city, county, state I codes the zoning ordinance, all of the, checklists and fee schedules, and basically any information that is useful if you are trying to, pour concrete, put sticks in the air, put solar on your roof, get a battery installed. Anything in the built environment, we're taking in those regulations and there's a hierarchy to how things ladder. So we do all of that for you. We're able to feed it through our AI platform. So instead of having to look through, 3000 pages of ordinance. You can just ask the question like, Hey, what is my front yard setback? In C North Carolina, it'll be like, oh, in R one zone, it's 20 feet. So that way, instead of doing all of this research, you get the answers that you need, correct the first time and go about your business. You don't

need to spend all of this? research on it. 

[00:21:50] David: general contractors? Is that who's using this?

[00:21:54] Jon: So home, home builders anyone deploying clean tech. Anyone in land planning, if they're looking at, we wanna put a, a 60 home neighborhood in, in this plot, are there minimum lot sizes? Are there, mailbox ordinances anyone building office buildings care, they probably bash their head in on sign ordinance before.

So really anyone that needs to be able to, anyone looking to build or, has to pull a permit for something doing future use, we're working with, building product companies that they're trying to see Hey, what standards do we need to hit? With our products so that we can go to market across the US or hey, if we build this to this standard, will that, in Florida. Is a great example, right? You'll get a lot of hurricanes, so windows and doors and roofs and solar panels and all of that. They have higher standards they have to build to, so they can take that information to their product innovation teams and they know that they're building a product that they can sell, in that market or across a lot of markets.

[00:23:08] Gary: Yeah, and that information's updated every few years too. So having a tool like yours that would give you the most current accurate instead of looking through an older, set of

permits or whatever 

[00:23:19] Jon: Yeah, So the kind of, the state codes and I codes are on like a three year cycle. But zoning ordinance can change every two weeks. 

So that's the anytime 

[00:23:30] David: How do you maintain that?

[00:23:32] Jon: Yeah, we've got a a suite of contractors and then we've got some agents that, that we've built to listen for those updates and then pull the data back through our pipeline.

'cause yeah, it changes, it can change at any time. So we have to, if we're gonna give correct information, we have to be on top of those.

[00:23:54] David: Okay.

[00:23:55] Gary: Now you mentioned you came from a clean tech background with a different company and you've worked for

IBM. So going from working for like those two bigger companies to starting a company. With your other founders, what was the most you had to unlearn and then relearn?

[00:24:16] Jon: Yeah, I think the biggest thing going from a big team to a small team is kind how many guardrails you have to put into the development process when you're a big team and, it makes sense. With, yeah, there's not a, I was not at IBM pushing docker containers that I built from my local machine straight to production, having, getting away from some of that, some of the guardrails and the quality

[00:24:46] Gary: little more fear that it's all on you now. Yeah.

[00:24:49] Jon: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:24:50] David: and freedom.

[00:24:52] Jon: yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I think that was probably the biggest thing. Luckily I've worked for startups previously as well, so I knew what I was getting myself into.

But. It's a different ball game when you are the head of the snake.

[00:25:08] Gary: Not only that, you're the head of the snake, not just for your company, but there's other two other people relying on you to make sure that's done right instead of a whole business that's gonna, take a look at it, proof it, make sure it's good, and then send it out. So

[00:25:21] Jon: Yes. Yeah, I think the first couple months, anytime we'd pushed to production was a scary endeavor. Luckily it built in some of those guardrails as I've needed them, so it's easier now.

[00:25:35] David: now that you've done both, would you ever go back to the big company

[00:25:41] Jon: I would never say never. I would,

I can't imagine going back to a big co corporation like that. I really enjoy having the freedom and the responsibility that comes along with being your own boss. So I'd have a really tough time. Giving that up

[00:26:01] David: Yeah, I'm basically Unhirable 

[00:26:02] Jon: to work from home. I've got two young kids, so I get to see them, throughout the day. And having the flexibility to go to a school play or, knock off 30 minutes early to help with, tennis practice or something like that. I'm gonna pay for it over the weekend, but yeah. Ha, having that flexibility is really nice.

[00:26:23] David: Totally get that. Totally get that. All right, Gary, bring us home.

[00:26:28] Gary: All right. So based on your experience, both with larger companies and startups, and now having your own startup what would you say are the top three pieces of advice that you could give an entrepreneur or someone starting a new business?

[00:26:43] Jon: I think the first is definitely lean on your network. Friends in the industry, friends out of the industry if you have a spouse, family being able to lean on the people that are in your corner. I couldn't do this without all of the folks that I've worked with previously.

I've got a very supporting wife. She is an angel, so I couldn't do this without her. I'd say number two is take care of yourself. It's the emotional rollercoaster that they talk about is a daily occurrence. You've got the highest of highs and the lowest of lows and it switches in the blink of an eye.

Taking that time, I mentioned fishing, for me, getting out there, shutting my brain off for a few hours, trying to catch a fish, spending time with my kids grounds you a lot and. Helps with some of those lows and also the highs. Not getting too big of a head helps. And then I spend a, a decent amount of time every week, or maybe not every week, but I try to do it every week. Reflecting on the why. Why am I doing this? Why are we doing this? What are we trying to solve? How are we trying to make an impact? And especially, having that mission as a startup and being able to ground in that helps a lot.

Especially when, times are tough and stuff isn't going right. Really reflecting on like, why are we putting ourselves through this? Helps a lot.

[00:28:21] Gary: Solid, solid pieces great, man. 

Now, if anybody wants to learn more about Forge or about you, where's the best place for them to reach out and find you?

[00:28:30] Jon: Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me and forge. I'm just John Gamble. I think John F. Gamble is my LinkedIn tag. Forge, F-O-R-D-J-E dot com or on LinkedIn. That's where we are.

[00:28:45] Gary: You will put the links in the show notes 'cause no one's gonna be able to spell for,

[00:28:50] Jon: That's all right.

[00:28:51] Gary: I'm just joking.

[00:28:52] David: He's never heard that before.

[00:28:55] Gary: I know.

[00:28:56] David: And on that note, thank you so much for joining us, Jonathan. This has been a lot of fun.

[00:29:00] Jon: It's been a pleasure.

[00:29:01] David: All righty. We'll be back next week. Thank you everybody. See you next time.