Retarget Your Success w/ Todd Mosier | Ep. 172

What happens when old-school brand wisdom meets modern-day marketing muscle?

 You get Todd Mosier, founder of Unanchor Marketing, talking shop with David and Gary on the newest episode of the Biz/Dev podcast.

This episode is full of hard truths, new tools, and a whole lot of “wait, that actually works?” energy.

LINKS:

Unanchor Marketing on LinkedIn

Todd Mosier on LinkedIn

Unanchor Marketing Site

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The Podcast

David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Todd: Sometimes people ask me how they should go about getting started in marketing, and I can only say you start with getting a computer science degree and then you work.

[00:00:07] David: That is exactly the correct path.

[00:00:09] Todd: Right there, there's no possible other way.


[00:00:15] David: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Biz Dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host, joined Per Usual by Gary. Once again, all in Black.

That's two weeks in a row.

[00:00:26] Gary: Actually, if you look

back at the recordings, it's every week in a row 

[00:00:30] David: Is 

[00:00:30] Gary: seems to be the only

shirt I have. Yeah. 

[00:00:32] David: You did wear some cream there for a while. It was a wild time. It

[00:00:36] Gary: Yeah. It got a little crazy.

Got it. Went like just.

[00:00:40] David: Pure spectrum

[00:00:41] Gary: from black to tan and then back to black

[00:00:44] David: Wow you are a visionary. If you wore a Hawaiian shirt, I think I'd fall outta my chair. More importantly, we are joined by Todd Mosier, who is the founder and owner of Unan Marketing. Hello, Mr. Todd. How are you?

[00:00:59] Todd: I'm doing well. Glad to be here.

[00:01:02] David: Now I have known you and on, like we have run across paths for 10 years at least. 

[00:01:10] Todd: Yeah, it was

down at the basement of the American Underground when you 

[00:01:14] David: that's right. 

[00:01:15] Todd: in the early days.

[00:01:16] David: Back in the day. I still miss that program. I still talk about that next program. It was a mentoring program for Gary and the audiences. It was a mentoring thing for early startups and I thought it was a great program and they shuttered it after two years.

It was very sad, but it basically was like a six week program. You actually paid for it. And you got all these mentors. Then more importantly, you've got this a guy named John Austin, who's a legend in these parts around startups. He would give a course about early startup stuff and that, that was the price of admission.

That was amazing stuff. And and then you had six weeks to really develop your stuff. And then really what you decided is, do you wanna keep going? And I thought that was like the best part. 'cause half would be like, no I realize there's no idea here. After talking to you for six weeks.

[00:01:58] Todd: It was a crazy program. I really enjoyed it because you got the chance to meet all these other startups that were trying to get these companies off the ground. And I love like the John Austin's approach of trying to figure out is there a there, is there something to. So and I think we had a blast kind of working through that program.

No doubt.

[00:02:15] David: So I know you more as a absolute tech nerd and founder guy and startup-y guy, but you are now a marketing guy. How did that come to be?

[00:02:26] Todd: That was a long journey. And. 

Sometimes people ask me how they should go about getting started in marketing, and I can only say you start with getting a computer science degree and then you work.

[00:02:36] David: That is exactly the correct path.

[00:02:38] Todd: Right there, there's no possible other way. So my path really was always starting off in software engineering. I was a software engineer for 10 plus years, absolutely loved that space. And when I started working in startups, I started getting more exposed into the business side of things. And so suddenly.

It wasn't just about the technical problems, but it was a lot more about the business problems that you were trying to solve. I got really interested in that. Got involved with the startup weekend, started to get involved with the next program and things like that, and ended up having incredible opportunity where I was working with somebody that needed the technical skills that I had, and also was interested in growing their business.

I got a chance to work with Aaron Avril over at Sport Tracks, which is really where I cut a lot of my teeth and which is where we met at American Underground. And so we transitioned that whole company from a.net app to a SaaS monthly subscription model, started taking on Facebook ads, and from there I was hooked.

There was a, there was one ad in Facebook that. Was absolutely, it's it was the magic for me. And it was doing the split testing in Europe of the northern countries versus the Mediterranean countries and really understanding kind of the advertising could have that big of an impact throughout your customer funnel and how it could have business impact.

After that, I was just hooked. It just made such. Such sense that you could take all these different dynamic components within Facebook. And then from there I'd known Jed forever. And then AdWorks was my kind of stomping ground as I learned all the other skills throughout marketing and got exposed to them over the next, I don't know, seven years or something like that.

[00:04:26] David: So how does your background, because I always find it interesting, there's a million marketing agencies out there, right? But they're all, it's rare that someone's always been in marketing, right? They have some sort of twist in their background. Your twist is that you're a nerd, and how does being a nerd affect how you approach marketing?

[00:04:48] Todd: I think. My technical leanings and just the way that I think about things provide a different foundation that is really strong. One of the first conversations I have with people that I engage with is gonna be, let's talk about your customer acquisition cost. Let's talk about your models of how much you think you can afford to pur to pay for in order to acquire a customer.

And so this idea of. Everybody thinks that they have these, that, that they need to have the models and they do need to have the models. But really understanding this bridge between, what a spreadsheet can pull together, what a model can pull together, and what it means for your actual marketing activities and your business activities.

That's something that's, it's not very much a native speaking kind of style for most people in the marketing space. There's definitely people out there that do it,

and I'm one of them that's just a natively speak. Spreadsheets, I speak LA languages and translate them into campaigns that sing and have ROI based all the way throughout the entire concept.

I think it's something that brings me so much joy to have a campaign that's performing the way that I want to, whether that's on the very bottom end of the funnel, the very top end, the funnel working on the more the demand gen side. So it's a mindset that I really think about as the way that I have an advantage there.

[00:06:10] David: So now the hard question, so being a nerd means that the creativity side of things is not your strong point. So how do you overcome that? Typically, maybe not you, but generally speaking, nerds are not normally the most creative. I speak from experience in that how do you, but marketing is a creative effort, right?

There's ad, there's copy, there's images. How do you. That unless it's just, you're good at both and that's just magic.

[00:06:37] Todd: Obviously the answer is I'm good at both.

[00:06:39] David: Clearly you're a savant in all things without question.

[00:06:43] Todd: I think the answer is finding the right people to pair with. And I'm definitely not the most creative person out there. I know people that are incredibly creative. I'm not the least creative person. I was in bands throughout college, ever recorded albums and things like that. Played, 50 shows a year throughout college and things like that.

So the creativity side is something that I really enjoy as well. But to your point. There's people that are really good at it, and I think really the challenge of making creative is. Finding the right people that can help you out with those things. And a lot of times it's part of the conversation with the client.

A lot of times it's helping somebody just bring outside perspective. Sometimes I can myself bring that sometimes it's about bringing outside help to be able to. Bring that voice. And I think a lot of times one of the challenges is somebody that understands the industry. So really have an industry expert that knows the space that you're trying to market into.

They provide a ton of value as well. So short answer is, yeah, I'm good at it all. No, the short answer is find the right people to bring it in and really help you out.

[00:07:44] David: So this is. A new venture for you. You've been doing marketing for a while now. I don't want to make it sound like you haven't been doing that for a while, but Ed is relatively new, right? You've been doing this less than a year?

[00:07:55] Todd: Yeah. Yeah, that's about right. It is a new venture to go start off on my own. Everything that I've done prior has always been in-house with either a venture-backed startup or bootstrapped, or revenue funded startups. And so this is the time where I'm really trying to stretch out into new spaces and I've really been really happy about some of the initial contact that I've had.

A lot of the people are supportive understanding that what I'm able to bring to the table is unique in their space. So it's been really nice to have some of the in early clients come through the door and say, yeah, I understand that you're bringing a lot of value to the table to be able to take their company to the next stage.

Really when I think about where my opportunity is, it's really with these companies that I. Understand that their growth has been stymied for one way or another. Maybe it's the gen AI kind of onslaught that's taking down your SEO. Maybe it's your email. Suddenly not having open rates that were what they were previously or other activities that have really plateaued your marketing growth.

That's where I feel like there's a greatest opportunity for me to come in. And right now it is on the smaller sized companies with people that may or may not even have a full-time marketer. And so really bringing my expertise across a lot a wide variety of industries to be able to help them turn those things around and get them going,

[00:09:17] David: So you brought up ai, which inevitably happens now in every episode, so

that's pretty, pretty good. So normally AI is. A lot of positives in an industry, sometimes not in my industry, is a weird mix, right? In software development, but in marketing generally when it, when I think of ai, I think of ai slop, right?

The just avalanche, tidal wave, tsunami, whatever big wave you'd like to use there of just crap that is flooding the internet, including, especially around SEO and ads and all of that. My question to you is how do you, if you want to, I was just talking to a guy today. I'm, I know I'm all over here, but I was talking to a guy today and his biggest problem is he's got a startup, he's got an id, he's got his little MVP out there, but he wants people to know about it. But in the world of ai, insanity, in terms of just content overload, how do you, how does a guy like that get off the ground? Because it's hard, right? This is not even, it's always been hard, but I think now the amount of screaming that is being done in the a because of AI just can make infinite content at will. It feels like that's a really tough, like almost a vertical line to jump on, right?

[00:10:32] Todd: I,

[00:10:33] David: a question in there somewhere.

[00:10:34] Todd: yeah, I really appreciate the softball question by the way.

[00:10:37] David: Hey man, we're here. We're here to help.

[00:10:40] Todd: The reality is it's a chaotic space right now, and people are trying to figure out how to navigate all of the turbulence in the market, and there's no easy answers in the space. I think one of the things that really seems to highlight are some of the foundational marketing components that have been true from.

From the beginning, which is try to really understand your audience, whittle them down to the most defined audience that you can clarify and make sure that you're targeting them, you know them well. I think you pair that with strong branding efforts with that, which as somebody that really focuses lower in the funnel, I do absolutely believe that some of the biggest differentiators today.

In an AI kind of inundated world are gonna be the brand. I think the branding is absolutely way more critical than it even was a few years ago. And I think a big piece of that continues to use your multiple channels to be able to establish that brand and help work people through that. Helping people get all the way to your website or your app or whatever you're trying to direct them to, and then making sure that you're having holistic marketing that follows them around each of the different ways.

It's a little bit of chaos out there and you need to be aware of the tools and how to be more efficient with the skills that you have. Recognizing that, chat GT is gonna be able to give you some great research that's out there. You're gonna be able to. Put video together and you're gonna be able to edit it and much, much faster than you ever have.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be great, but it means that it's gonna be available. And so how do you manage each of those? I think you still have to rely on a little bit of creativity, a little bit of, in focus on the intuition to make sure that you understand these audiences way better.

For example I just went up to the travel and Adventure show up in DC this weekend, which timing-wise was perfect because there was a cherry blossom festival. So there's just a perfect time for it. And. All I did, 'cause one of the areas, one of the industries I'm really focusing on is the travel industry.

And so this was an incredible opportunity to go learn about not just the travel industry, but who are your d os, your destination marketing organizations, who are the different providers that are coming into it? Who's serving those spaces? Talking with the travel advisors that are in there, really understanding your industry in depth so that you can speak their language, you can talk to them.

Those are the things that I don't think AI is yet able to really do. It'll get there. I'm assuming it's just not there yet. So how do you stand apart? Out? Apart today is really understanding your customer, speaking their language that they feel like they're being spoke to in a way that is authentic and valuable.

[00:13:27] David: So I'm gonna commandeer my own podcast and turn this into a free consulting session. I have to write, so my marketing person, Christie, who you've spoken to, and if anyone's listening to this, has absolutely seen her work. I. She is, we have come to the decision that in order to fight our way of fighting AI in a marketing space is to just be painfully authentic. And the way we are going to do that is by me, 'cause I'm doing cold emails, right? But I am choosing 10 people per week. Not a lot that I personally am writing an individual email to 10 people. The problem is I was writing the first one today. I have no idea what to say. So I actually, so ironically, here's the irony of it.

'cause I've never done this before. I am not a marketer, but I'm our sales guy, right? The way I sell is schmoozing. This is what I do. I schmooze, I talk, I meet people for coffee all the time, but I. I, no one's doing cold email stuff for us, so I have to do that. I have a marketing person. She's not sales. She doesn't do that, so I have to do that. And so I've never written a cold email in my life, so what do I do? Of course I go to ai, which is ironic to me 'cause I'm going authentic, but then I go to AI to help me write it, right?

[00:14:40] Gary: But if you ask AI to write it authentically, does that count?

[00:14:44] David: I don't know. I don't know where the line is, but I will say. That I suck at it. Like I'm really bad. 'cause as a marketing person, how do you come to grips? I'm not asking you to help me write my email, even though that would be lovely. How do you write an effective communication? 'cause I have to stuff in like everything in one email that's also short so that you won't, you'll read it.

Like how do you. Do you have strategies on how you do that or is that just way beyond? You guys don't do that at all and I'm just off in the weeds, but this is just really personal to me at this very moment. 'cause I'm doing it right after this podcast.

[00:15:20] Todd: Yeah. Email strategy is a fascinating ch email as in general is an a fascinating channel. I absolutely love it. Obviously there's all the components that you need to think about, whether it's the subject line, whether it's the pre-header, the actual body. Are you gonna be doing a. Text based one that's text heavy are gonna be visual.

Is it a promotion? What's the specific ask that you're trying to get out of it? And that will drive a lot of what your next steps are. But I think the biggest question straight off is, what is the subject line? Is it gonna get opened and standing out in the inbox is, it's the art of email.

[00:16:01] David: So

how do, so what is a good subject line? What makes people open it as a data-driven dude? Like you've gotta,

I know somewhere you have a database full of all sorts of statistics through your clients and other things you've read. So what is it generally speaking that makes someone open it?

Is it funny? Is it poignant? Is it, like what is the magic sauce? And I'm not just generally speaking.

[00:16:25] Todd: Yeah. First off, personalization. Like

people and I'm not just saying Hey, David, how's your day going? The more close that you can understand the reason that they might be opening it up, right? It's, Hey, as an owner of a dev shop, I. Dot, or you can have any type of personalization that speaks to the business component or the motivation for them to open, such as is there a promotion that they need to be aware of?

If so, give the expiration part of it. This is why you see the subject lines of good until Friday. It's the 20% off until Friday. If you can have a syntax in there that doesn't look spammy but looks reasonably authentic, those are ways that you can do. And that can be brackets at the beginning.

That can be 48 hours colon. There's all of these small little ticks and tricks that you have, and the reality is it will change every single month. Suddenly what was working before is not. something will work later. I will say one of the things that you tend to see. Is that shorter subject lines tend to have greater open rates than longer ones.

And that is where your pre-header really comes in handy when you see it in the inbox, where you can actually see the piece of the email that's above the body, but you really don't see it normally. And so you have that pre-header component as well that you can see in the preview subject line. So the combination of those things of a nice short, personalized subject line.

Followed with a good preheader that has a little bit of information to tease. It's setting a hook or setting a promise that needs to be fulfilled within the body of the email itself.

[00:18:05] David: Fancy. 




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[00:18:41] Gary: Now you work, you said mainly since you've started, have you been working with larger or smaller companies and which do you prefer? At the moment 

[00:18:51] Todd: I'm, right now I'm working with smaller companies and really some of the most interesting conversations that I walk in with are. Trying to establish this CAC target, the customer acquisition target in small companies especially, they just don't have a clear number of what they should be willing to pay for a customer.

And so I end up finding that's a lot of the immediate value that I'm able to bring in and say let's look at your business. What type of business is it? Are you a recurring revenue business? Are you a project based business? How do you establish your long-term value of a customer or LTV?

How should you be able to estimate if you have estimate a cac if you. Don't have that data. If you do have that data, how far is the gap between your CAC target, what you should be paying or should be willing to pay versus what you're actually paying? A lot of times there's a big gap there between what kind of market standards might be for acquiring a customer versus what you actually are.

And so this is a lot of the initial value that I bring in is help helping these companies. Establish what those targets can be and understand what a scalable and repeatable growth strategy is gonna look like from there. So I like the small side because it's really interesting going from, this is my technical background coming in of I want them to have a stable foundation to say, yeah, I should be able to spend.

A dollar 50, 10, 50, $10,000 for a client because this is how my business works and I can be able to confidently either ramp up my marketing or pull it back based off of something that makes sense. So on the small side, that's where I find it's really interesting to work with companies at that stage.

[00:20:31] David: So back to my consulting, free consulting that I'm getting here today. Here's where I struggle with what you just said. Okay. Let's say my average client is $50,000, right? Our clients are not small. We don't have a lot of them. That would, using your logic, if I spent five or $10,000 to get a new client, let's say 5,000, 10%, that should be reasonable. But in. The problem is, at least in reality, is that 5,000 is being spent somewhere else. So now I'm having to borrow it. Right now it's, and what I struggle with, and I imagine a lot of small businesses struggle with as well, is if I give you that $5,000, there's no way you're guaranteeing me. I'm getting a new client and 'cause you can't, I'm just chucking it down a hole. Maybe it'll come back, maybe it won't. Right? And that's where I always struggle with those kinds of comparisons. You make $10 on a client, so you should be able to spend $2 to get, 'cause wouldn't you love 10 more dollars for $2? Who doesn't want that? But that's not how it works in the real world with my company, if I gave you $5,000 and you do that wrong, not wrong, like you did something wrong, but you weren't successful. But despite your best efforts, I'm out $5,000 that I could have used in a lot of other ways. So how does that work in reality? 'cause that's where I struggle.

[00:21:44] Todd: I think it's a great question. And it's the reality of, especially a, call it a kind of non venture capital backed company that doesn't have access to gigantic cash pockets. I think one of the things as you look at customer acquisition is that your cash is absolutely a big part of those models, right?

You can't just have a customer acquisition model that ignores cash, the cash flow, the cash balance that you have, and oftentimes. Things that get really interesting is where you have one arm of the business funding growth and another arm of the business, right? And so you end up trying to understand how you can build these cash flow feeders where they work.

Because you're right, it, it doesn't make sense for somebody to try to spend $5,000 a client again and again with failure, right? That just doesn't work that way. And so I think the reality is one of the other hidden pieces in the CAC models a lot of times are the sales teams, right? This is part of the customer acquisition costs are the people that are actually closing those deals.

Those go in as part of that model as well. It's not just marketing campaign dollars, it's everything from are you doing branding ads? Are you attending conferences and traveling there? To GF marketers that are putting your together, your email campaigns, do you have SDRs that are dialing out to be able to qualify some of the leads that came through?

Do you have marketing automation, like all of the stack, all the way through the sales team as well? So there's, it's a pretty complete picture of how much you need to pay or how much you actually are paying. So my first question would be, okay, your average deal size is 50 K. Maybe comfortable paying 5,000.

You may not be paying worth. You might, you may not be comfortable paying 5,000. The first question I'd ask is, you've been around for a while. How much are you paying? Like where? Where are you at today with these numbers? And when you look at it from that angle, it may actually be a pretty different number than what you're expecting. And 

[00:23:43] David: My guess is most people, 'cause if you ask me, I would say I have no idea.

And I would guess most of your clients are saying the exact same thing.

'cause we don't think of it that way. No one's challenging me on that. But that's an interesting question 'cause and you're finding like, if I were a, not even bigger company, but a company that had a true sales engine going, they would have that number down to the penny and my co my, I have no idea. Just no idea.

[00:24:10] Todd: Yeah, that is one of the core numbers to try to understand, to build a repeatable and scalable growth engine. It's one thing to do non repeatable, non-scalable activities that you can make that model work up into a certain point, but when you want to hit new levels of scale, which is why I think.

My opportunity a lot of times is coming in when there's been a plateau in growth, and you're trying to bust through that plateau because you've hit limits on, you can only attend so many BD functions as the CEO or as the founder. You can only write so many cold personal emails that you're doing on a daily basis.

And so the question becomes, all right, we've reached some limiting point. What is the limiting factor in this? And how do we craft campaigns that are able to take it beyond? But before you do any of that. You have to understand the model that says, okay, I can spend say the target was currently that you're spending $5,000 after you do all your math and things like that.

And you say, all right, that, puts me at, a five to one C to LTV ratio, or I guess that'd be a 10 to one. Industry standard might say that you actually have some room in to be still fairly risk tolerant. In today's environment where there's a lot of chaos, you wanna pull back a little bit from your growth strategies to be a little bit more risk tolerant.

So you may actually have room to go up and say, yeah, today I'm spending 5,000. I don't want to go all the way up to the most aggressive kind of three to one LTV to CAC ratio, but let me bring it back down to, something like six. You might actually find budget in that. That really can be turned into a new growth strategy that gets you off that plateau.

[00:25:53] David: Okay. Okay. No, that makes a lot of sense. 

[00:25:55] Todd: Without the data, you just won't know.

[00:25:57] David: Yeah, and I think generally speaking, most entrepreneurs are working from that same playbook. They don't have that data, and they don't realize why they need that data. I'm 12 years in and I don't have that data, until you need that data, right?

Because you're, you hit that plateau or something and because you did the most you could do, I'm not saying that's where we are or anything. I'm just saying hypothetically, if you've hit this plateau, you don't even know what the question's asked. And then magically, Todd is here to answer all of your questions.

Boy, it's man, that's like a best lead in effort. Alright 

[00:26:32] Gary: we have a request for three more pieces of advice. 

[00:26:36] Todd: Yeah, I would say I do have three tips to give out to companies getting started in this space. And the first one, based off this conversation is not gonna be any surprise. Try to figure out what you should be paying for to acquire a customer and what you are, run the numbers. This is how much your customer is typically valued for you on an average basis, and maybe you need to separate them out.

You say, I have large customers and small customers, great. Put those in two separate buckets. Try to figure out how much you should be paying based off of, you can use a five to one LTV to CAC or something like that. Very kind of conservative stance. And then figure out how much you are, include your sales, include your marketing, include all the efforts that go around to acquire them.

And that should give you a sense of how much headroom you have in your growth today. So that's the first one is really set a CAC target for yourself. Run the numbers and do yourself a favor to figure out where you're at. I'd say the second one, this is my most tactical thing that I always tell people.

First off, if you're not doing site retargeting, do site retargeting. Visit website retargeting. When somebody comes in, follow them around with your ads. Display ads. It doesn't have to be crazy, but you know that when somebody visited your site for some reason, they were interested in what you have to offer and why do you do this?

This is all about branding because people are busy people. They are out doing whatever it is that keeps their lives busy, and they a lot of times will forget about you. So for your clients that you have, for your prospects, put an ad in front of them on a regular basis, it's not gonna cost that much because most people don't have a ton of site traffic that they need to retarget.

Do that, and it will impact your business just foundationally. Don't even measure it per se, as a kind of return on investment. Put it out there and just say, this is the cost of doing business. Site retargeting should be in place without a doubt. That's number two. Last one is it's a little bit of a chaos in the business world right now, and the knee jerk reaction is to.

Just take all of your campaigns and turn them down. Alright. I need a little bit more cash. I wanna be a little more conservative with my approach. I'm gonna turn everything down from 10 to five because that's my approach. What you actually want to do is recognize that marketing channels are not created equal, and what you want to identify is your least performing channel.

And actually turn down that one rather than turning down all of them. Now, you do have situations where you say, yes, I have a cross channel campaigns going on. There are exceptions to all of these things without a doubt. But really take fewer marketing channels, make sure to execute on them at a continued level with a continued level of intensity.

Focus on them. Make sure that they're performing at their highest levels. If you have fewer things to worry about, you'll do better at those things that are on your plate right now. And so that's the third one is don't turn down everything. Try to find one or two things that you can turn down really far to almost just go on autopilot or all the way off.

[00:29:56] David: I like it. Very marketing specific, but I think that's a nice take.

[00:30:01] Gary: Yeah, I like the idea of just turning down the channel instead of turning down the marketing itself. I used to work for a company, it was a publishing company back in the day. One half of the business was publishing, the other half was marketing. And one of the older bosses go-to phrase all the time is what happens when you stop marketing?

Nothing. That's all. So I've repeated that to David. Multi, multi, multi times.

[00:30:27] David: Yeah, it's actually the reason we have a Christie at all is 'cause I finally was like, alright, I'm gonna trust you. It was the last time I trusted him. It was just, it was, it's gone badly ever since. I'm just kidding.

[00:30:37] Gary: Well, Todd, if anybody wants to learn more about you or Unan marketing, how can they reach out and find you?

[00:30:43] Todd: Yeah, you can visit the website@unanchormarketing.com and you'll definitely get retargeted. Or you can certainly reach out to me atTodd@unanchormarketing.com.

[00:30:51] David: Very right. We'll put those

[00:30:52] Gary: links in the show notes too so you don't have to remember how to spell 'em.

[00:30:55] Todd: Appreciate that

[00:30:57] David: On that note, thank you so much for joining us, man. This has been a whole lot of fun.

[00:31:00] Todd: this has been a blast.