Rizz Masters Gone Wild | Ep. 151

In this episode of the Biz/Dev podcast David and Gary are left to their own devices and things go off the rails quickly! If you love AI chat, tech news and all things charisma- this one's for you.

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David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] David: If you're charismatic, that's a lot harder and I have relatively decent charisma. but I don't think I'm domineering. So I'm not sure where I fit on that stuff. It's funny when you read these leadership traits, you're like, Oh, I'm not doing that.

Oh, I do that. 

[00:00:11] Gary: You just called yourself a Rizz Master?

[00:00:14] David: What?

[00:00:18] David: Hi everyone. Welcome to the biz dev podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host joined by the one and only Gary Voigt. What's up, man?

[00:00:28] Gary: How you doing? Everything going? All

[00:00:30] David: good, man. We have no guest, so I'm feeling a little lonely. I don't want to talk to you for the next 45 minutes.

[00:00:36] Gary: But this is my only time that I get to talk when we have no guests

[00:00:40] David: That's fair.

That's because you're boring.

[00:00:44] Gary: or anytime I bring up something not related to entrepreneurial business stuff, you change the conversation.

[00:00:52] David: We typically

[00:00:53] Gary: So let's talk about design. Thank you.

[00:00:55] David: Oh, gosh. I'm

[00:00:56] Gary: See,

[00:00:57] David: gonna cry. Hey, I'll speak about design. Latest and greatest in the tech world. Have you seen all of the demos that Mark Zuckerberg is doing with his glasses?

[00:01:08] Gary: I have not, because to be honest with you, I, the whole VR, AR glasses thing, I'm, I've lost interest.

[00:01:17] David: Really?

[00:01:18] Gary: Yeah. I mean, Apple stumbled pretty big on that one

[00:01:22] David: they did, they went for the helmet route and that, I think

[00:01:27] Gary: was there, I thought maybe there, it just, it seems like no matter who's doing it right now, that's not gaining any traction other than some keynote.

And then a couple of, you know. Paid influencers talking about how rad it is. And then next thing you know, it goes nowhere.

[00:01:43] David: so I would encourage you to go and look up one of those demos. They came out, so I'll put on mine. These are the Ray Ban glasses. I've had these for a while, so I don't normally wear my glasses on the podcast, but these are the ones that have cameras all over here and there's AI in my ears and I can listen to podcasts.

These are cool, but they're limited in functionality by the nature of the beast. The ones they showed off. Were the first time they were fully glasses. It comes

[00:02:09] Gary: I did see the glasses. They look like the frames are pretty thick, not like AR glasses, but thicker than those

[00:02:15] David: They're hoping that the real ones, wouldn't they come out in a couple of years will be half the size that would probably put them in still chunky glasses territory.

But they have full screens so I can look at you and it's not a screen looking straight at you real world. And there's just, the whole thing can put up little doodads. They were playing pong together. They did a bunch of AR kind of recognize what I'm looking at kind of stuff. They did a video call, which was kind of cool.

Again, it's not the greatest resolution, but someone said in one of the demos was even a bad resolution when it's on the background of reality. Still is amazing 

[00:02:55] Gary: yeah, just

[00:02:56] David: you're putting

[00:02:56] Gary: idea that it's happening while you're still walking around in the world. Yeah.

[00:03:00] David: yeah, it's like you, you almost give it a pass because like when you put on the vision pro it, it's cameras. And so you're looking at a video screen. And when you're, when you look at that, you realize the weakness of screens. When they're replacing reality, like there's a, just a slight delay because of reality, there's no delay.

Yeah. And how that works. So they say it's really amazing. And they also have this band thing that uses electromagnetic pulses that happen in your hand when you move your fingers and so it doesn't have to see them, like, you know, in the vision pro, you

[00:03:32] Gary: The Apple vision, you have the hand gestures, but this one just feels the muscle movement and

[00:03:37] David: So you can you can control the glasses with your hands in your pocket. So you can literally be anywhere and you're, you can flick, you can touch, you can grab. And they say, what's really wild is when your hands are that instant. Cause there's no delay that your eye becomes the cursor. And the delay is gone.

Like vision pro that's one of the biggest complaints was there was this imperceptible.

[00:04:01] Gary: the eye tracking movement was a little bit laggy.

[00:04:05] David: It just didn't quite work with the hand and the eyes. And this is way, way better. It's very impressive stuff, man. And I think that's. What's really interesting. The glasses, the literal lenses in the glasses are basically diamonds. So that's why they can't make this a product yet. They literally are some silica carbide, which is like a man made diamond.

The lenses are like 10, 000 bucks, but. It was really interesting though, and I've seen a couple of the podcasts that he was on and he was like, I really thought that other companies would start, you can grow these things. Like with science, you can grow these

[00:04:46] Gary: yeah. Like lab made

[00:04:47] David: thought Evie makers would be doing it.

I thought that Apple would be doing it and that there would be an economy of scale, but in the last five years, he's been the only company that's doing it. 

[00:04:57] Gary: Else is probably waiting to see like, let's see what happens with this. If

[00:05:00] David: he did it. He's did it. He's the first, 

[00:05:03] Gary: Yeah, but how do you resell something that costs that much to

[00:05:05] David: you can't, that's why they're not coming out. They just did demos, but he's, they're hoping that they can do the screens on regular glass. They're not sure yet, but it's really, I will say after seeing all the demos and all of that, it looks like there, I thought they were five, 10 years out and what they showed.

Last week, they might be two or three years out, which is amazing. I mean, I would love to be able to wear glasses all day. Like I wear these are my regular glasses. Now my real ones, here's a funny story. So I have normal thin metal glasses and I'm leaving work and I'm going to go by Starbucks and I put on my glasses and I get my car.

I don't have bad vision. It's like 20, 30, 20, 35. So I can. Go without glasses just fine. So I'm in my car, I've had the Starbucks drive thru and half of this, the menu is totally blurry. And

[00:06:02] Gary: Did you lose a lens and not

[00:06:03] David: yeah, I'm like having a stroke right now because the left side of my brain is completely freaking out.

And then I realized I could put my finger through the glass. I'm such an idiot. So anyway, so my regular glasses are toast and we bought these for a trip. And I just got them to be prescription and their transition, which is wild. But I wear these all the time. Now they're chunky, right? They're kind of big for my face, but for the most part, people don't even know they're metaglasses.

They don't, they just, they're Ray Bans. That's all people see them as. If they were sunglasses, no one would even think twice because usually sunglasses are pretty chunky. So the idea that I could wear those at all the time and read an email or watch a YouTube video or, Whatever is amazing to me that is potentially two or three years away.

I love that stuff. I'm a total

[00:06:53] Gary: we're just getting closer and closer to WALL E and Ready Player One all at the same time.

Have you noticed the trend, I guess you can say in the tech industry of making promises of a product and then saying like, this will be done at a later date? And then that later date keeps getting later and later, and then the hype's gone. And now you're just disappointed.

It seems like every keynote now has like a quote unquote flagship feature or product that's going to come sometime in the future. And then it's just, you're just waiting for it and waiting for it. And then by the time it comes out, you're like, eh, I'm over it.

[00:07:32] David: the verge has a thing that says it's 2024 it doesn't work and I don't believe you

[00:07:39] Gary: Yeah, that's a good summary.

[00:07:41] David: and I thought that was pretty good and he was, they were mainly going around that was, I think that's hit its peak with EVs go two years ago. All the companies started talking about these EVs that they were making and they were all just like renders.

They had, they weren't cars. And so the cars finally would come out and you're like, eh, I've seen better. And now they're scuttling half of those plans because EVs aren't as sexy anymore. They're not as, as someone who owns an EV though,

[00:08:08] Gary: There's

[00:08:09] David: would be really hard to go back.

[00:08:11] Gary: there's a lot more advances in battery technology that there, I think a lot of companies that are making EVs are kind of pausing a little bit right now to see if they can take advantage of the newer battery technologies that are going to be a lot cheaper to produce and last a lot longer.

Like if you, like, I know

[00:08:26] David: that's one of those. I don't believe you yet things when it comes to batteries. 

So I've been reading a really great book recently. This is not a new buying a stretch, a good to great by Jim Collins.

It is a classic business book and

[00:08:41] Gary: brother.

[00:08:42] David: no get out. It was, it's an older book. So 2001, so it's, it, the companies they mentioned are older, like circuit city is one of the test cases. And what it is this guy, he, Jim Collins is known for doing a lot of research. He has a whole research team and he's coming to prove points.

And so the question was how, what made some companies become great and others in their same industry didn't. What is it like, and their definition of great where they had to do three X go up than value and three X, the size of the market and all had bunch of different categories. And one of the things that they wanted to disprove, they didn't want it to be leader based because they're like, Oh, it's easy to just blow it off.

Like, Oh, it's because of good leadership. That's, and they're like, that's what we didn't want to say. And they kept going back and forth because the data kept telling them that there is something to do with leaders. And they call them level five leaders is kind of the brand of them. And it's basically guys and gals, but this is an older book.

So they're mostly dudes. What they were with, these were humble people. Who were driven to make drastic change. For instance, Walgreens is one of them. I did not know this, but in the seventies, Walgreens owned over 500 restaurants.

[00:10:00] Gary: Restaurants?

[00:10:01] David: Restaurants. Now, I don't know what kind of restaurants, I don't know if it was kind of like the soda pop,

[00:10:06] Gary: Oh, okay. No, that would make

[00:10:07] David: it was.

[00:10:08] Gary: Yeah. Because my dad actually worked in a drugstore that had like a soda

[00:10:13] David: the soda

[00:10:14] Gary: like somewhat of like a burger, not really a diner, they did like burgers and sandwiches and coffee and sodas within the pharmacy.

So that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:10:21] David: in the 80s or 90s, I can't remember exactly, their CEO at the time made the decision to remove all of the restaurants, just close them all down and they were going to be a pharmacy only. And to have that, I mean, this was a massive, company and to have this vision and to make this happen required them to make the, to have this vision of what the company could be.

And it totally dramatically changed everything, another company. And I'm going to miss who that was, but he was like the, grandson of the founder. And it was interesting because they compared him to one of his competitors. Both were led by family members, both of these companies. One of them decided that the only way you were going to stay in leadership at this company was to be a good business person.

Family didn't matter. And so he just culled the leadership of all these family members who were just dead weight. which is, can you imagine what that Thanksgiving looked like?

[00:11:23] Gary: So he fired all the family members

[00:11:24] David: fired all the family members and the company shot off like a rocket on the other side of it, the same company. It was, Hey, you're, you got the last name you're in, you're good, whatever.

And the company just meandered and fell apart. And it, but it wasn't the fact that he made the right decision. It was, he was willing to make the hard decision. He looked at the data and he said, this is what has to happen. I don't, you know, consequences don't matter. We have to do this or we're not going to be the company we can be.

And it was really interesting. I mean, it's a fascinating book. One of the things that they really preach, and you've probably heard this before, is to get the right people on the bus. Have you heard that phrase?

[00:12:05] Gary: People on the bus, people, seats. Just,

[00:12:07] David: Yeah, the classic businessy stuff. So a lot of that comes from this book where you're talking about, you might be, have a great employee. But a lot of times that great employee is in the wrong job. And more importantly, though, if you don't have the right employee, you need to get them off the bus. That's hard for me in particular.

I am very bad at firing people. And I think that's pretty common, right? I mean, people, especially you didn't get in to start your business to to be a jerk 

[00:12:37] Gary: I think there's a level at which once you have a certain number of employees and certain processes where you're not, you know, you might've started the business, but you're not as hands on with everybody that you used to be. You know what I mean? That kind of a situation is now handled by HR.

So it's easier to make those decisions. But when you're a smaller company and you're literally handpicking everybody, yeah, you're invested. Yeah.

[00:13:02] David: Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I've even our company, so we're 13. 14, something like that. I know everybody. 

 So we have like 1314 people and I've picked or been heavily involved in picking every single person.

Now we are to the size where I don't work with everybody every day. And that's been a shift. But it's still, I mean, like we have a rule, I don't know what you call it. I meet with every employee every month, we call it the no agenda meeting. And it's a one on one zoom, you know, nothing fancy. And we just chat.

I come in with no questions. I mean, I feel the air, right? I can talk to a wall, but I don't, I purposefully try not to speak up. like, what do you want to talk about? It's kind of the worst way to start a conversation, but I want them to lead and then I'll pick it up if it's, you know, they don't have anything to talk about again, you know, we got a lot of developers, not real chatters, but that has been amazing to do that, but it means I get close to everybody.

To a point, I mean, as close as they let me, maybe that's the right way to say that. Some people don't know if you're saying anything personal about them. Like, I don't know everybody's wife's or spouse's name, not because I don't care, but because they purposefully. Keep that separate from me,

[00:14:24] Gary: Yeah. Some

[00:14:25] David: Totally. And they're right. So we were just like, I got work and I got home and I'm out, right? We don't mix those and that's fine. It's fine. But I have been surprised how much one, everyone enjoys that. Like everybody, first time I did it, everybody was, Oh man, what are we doing? This is a waste of my time.

[00:14:46] Gary: Yeah.

[00:14:47] David: And we just chat. We start chatting. Cause they're first off, they think there's an ulterior motive. 

[00:14:52] Gary: Or there was always going to be the impression that you're saying you're not talking about work, but it's always going to lead to work and it's always, I'm all going to be evaluated on what I'm doing. You know what I mean? That's, The first impression people are going to assume,

[00:15:07] David: and now we've done it three months, four months, and

[00:15:10] Gary: it's been for,

[00:15:12] David: everybody really seems to enjoy it. Even the naysayers are like that showing up and. When we got really busy, we did several of them last week and they're like, I can't make it. So I just rescheduled it. I didn't cancel it. I was like, no, you're not getting out of this chief.

This is happening, but we can do it later. So I have a couple this week that I should have had last week. But anyway, if you are a leader and you have more than just your top tier people that you talk to every day, like it's kind of funny talking to you on our one on one or Scott, who I talk to every day.

Every day we're chatting about something. So those are different. I mean, we still do them, but the important ones are the ones I don't talk to every day. So I, you got to

[00:15:52] Gary: yeah, there's not a whole lot of new stuff you need to learn when you're talking to like me or Scott or, but yeah,

[00:15:59] David: But if you have, I'd say over five people, I mean, you don't have to be large at all over five people, man, I would encourage that. It is really, it's really great.

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[00:16:44] David: I think leadership is one of those things.

You can be born a leader. I believe that 1000%, but I also think you can become a leader and I don't think it means you're charismatic. A lot of times the book is showing that charisma is actually a, hindrance to being a great leader. You can be a good one because you can use your charm and your wit and all that and just drag the company to a certain level, right?

But if you want to get beyond that, you have to create a culture where people. Are okay to argue with you. They're okay to contradict what you're saying. And And if you have this very powerful personality, that becomes really hard, right? If you're this, you know, you've seen those leaders that those cultive leaders that, I mean, Elon would probably be the most extreme version, but it's like, no one says anything until the boss speaks.

And that works to a point if that guy's truly talented or that girl's truly talented But at some point if you want to go to that next level or build a company that's going to last for generations After you retire You've got to get beyond that. You have to build a culture where everyone is smart and they're not waiting on you to lead all the time, right?

You're building leaders, not pushing them down. Does that make sense? And so.

If you're charismatic, that's a lot harder and I have relatively decent charisma. but I don't think I'm domineering. So I'm not sure where I fit on that stuff. It's funny when you read these leadership traits, you're like, Oh, I'm not doing that.

Oh, I do that. 

[00:18:16] Gary: You just called yourself a Rizz Master?

[00:18:19] David: What?

[00:18:20] Gary: Yep. You Gen Z slanged yourself.

[00:18:23] David: Oh, I don't even know what you just said. Full cap?

[00:18:27] Gary: No, no cap full cap.

[00:18:29] David: cap? I don't know. That's the only thing I ever hear. I am so old. 

 I think there is some marketing to it because when we were kids, you never heard about baby boomers. You never heard

[00:18:40] Gary: Not really.

[00:18:41] David: the greatest generation. No one ever talked about those.

Those labels didn't exist. We became Gen X. I thought it was a placeholder

[00:18:49] Gary: I thought it was a marketing

[00:18:50] David: so I was, I didn't probably heard that when I was in twenties. Now I'm on the younger side of Gen X, my brother, who is, he's 14 years older than me. So he's almost 60. He is on the other side of Gen X. So he's the old guy and I'm the young

[00:19:06] Gary: before.

[00:19:06] David: I was born in 78. So Gen X ended in 80. So I mostly identify when people talk about like the past, I identify mostly with millennials because their childhood was my childhood. And they're talking about the nineties and stuff like that. I was in high school. But the technically Gen Z ended in 2020. So Gen Alpha, I guess, technically a little older. Yeah, so they've just, and I keep thinking is Gen Z a placeholder because you just, like it was Gen Y and the note, they became millennials. I always loved the term zoomers for Gen Z. I thought that was great.

[00:19:42] Gary: Oh, I think Gen X at first was called Gen X cause they didn't have a name for that generation. And then it turned into the marketing thing of

[00:19:51] David: The one who didn't

[00:19:52] Gary: Extreme sports, extreme this. The extreme thing carried a lot of weight for many years.

[00:19:59] David: Yeah. For a while there, I think they were talking about the I generation because of all the Apple stuff. I blew my

[00:20:04] Gary: I don't think that landed. Yeah.

[00:20:06] David: not land. I blew my kids away when I say an Apple doesn't call any other. New products, buy anything. They're like, really? Not since the iPad. Really? Now it's the Apple watch.

It's the Apple vision pro it's Apple stuff. There's no eyes anymore.

[00:20:24] Gary: but they still make the iPad.

[00:20:25] David: They make that where

[00:20:26] Gary: that is the last product with the eye.

[00:20:28] David: there's too much. You're never going to call it something besides the iPhone. That's one of the best known brands in the world. You're not changing that. That's like Coca Cola changing their name. Not going to happen.

[00:20:39] Gary: Although I did see a push online for developers to try to get together and recreate when amp

[00:20:47] David: Oh,

[00:20:47] Gary: as the music player,

[00:20:49] David: All right, I'm going to bring up AI. So last week, Matt, who was our resident AI guy, he just loves this stuff. He showed

[00:20:58] Gary: is ironic. I have to point this out, which is ironic because the only podcast Matt was ever on with me. Years ago, the topic was AI and he brushed off like it was a joke.

[00:21:09] David: really, Oh, you should bring that

[00:21:11] Gary: now he's deep into it.

[00:21:13] David: He is super deep into it. So he showed me the other day, he had to do some estimation on some tickets and. He want, and he was kind of off on an island because he was, he's the only one on this little project and he had to make these estimates and he didn't want to bother anybody.

So he started asking chat GPT to help him. And he says, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I'm writing in this language. I'm doing this. Here's my spec. How many hours should this take me? And it breaks it down. This is what you're going to have to do. It's really a remarkable cause I did it too. I was like, really?

I grabbed, cause I was just having to be making an estimate at this time. So I copied and pasted some of my just blob of texts. I was like, I got to do this. And it breaks it down. Now I will say the hours were way off,

[00:22:00] Gary: I was going to say, like how does it estimate human

[00:22:03] David: sure. I have no idea. I don't know. I will say when we finally did like the estimate I was working on, I actually took the whole thing, my whole word doc that I was writing, shoved the whole thing in there and said, make me an estimate.

And it. Turns into bullets. It did such a cool breakdown of it. And it was, I think 40 percent wrong, 30%, 30, 40 percent off. So yeah I don't remember the exact hours, but by the end of it, it was cause I was, cause Scott and I were doing the real estimate over here. We were chatting about it and I was, I had done that morning.

I was like, okay, I want to see the comparison. And I think it was like the difference between like 400 hours versus 600 hours, something like that. It was a big difference. For the amount of work, but it is so cool because you can ask it questions. Hey, do you think I did this right? What do you, it's very neat.

[00:22:52] Gary: Yeah. And this is the part where like the helpful tool part of it would be, Hey, it did a cool breakdown. The hours are wrong, but you could still copy and paste that breakdown as like a list of what you need to estimate. And like to get more specific. So at least it's taking you part of the way there.

[00:23:07] David: it's a great tool. I just, I worry about beginners because if you've never estimated

[00:23:15] Gary: You cannot rely on it. Yeah. You

[00:23:17] David: but you don't know any better, right? That's what I'm afraid of. If you're doing your 25 and your boss says, Hey, why don't you estimate this task for me? And you don't know what you're doing. You're well the, I'm gonna use chat GPT.

It told me it's going to take me 65 hours and you, so you, that's what you put down. And it takes you 90 hours. I mean, dude, rough. And that's true for most, you know, it's the same with code. It's like, here's a bunch of code. It's decent. It'll save you time. It's great. But it's not perfect. We have to rewrite big chunks of it.

It saves us, I think 10 percent is what we're, the team is averaging out says about 10 percent of time, which that's noticeable. Y'all that's four hours a week.

[00:23:55] Gary: Yeah. I mean, I would have expected a little higher only because of the nonstop marketing push about, Coding with AI is like making it accessible for everybody. And I built this whole app in two hours, blah, blah, blah.

[00:24:09] David: Yeah. I don't know

[00:24:10] Gary: with Claude mixed with this mixed with that mixed with mid journey mixed with this, here's a fully functional app.

And then you look deeper into the, and the app is like something that it just, it generates a to do list from an email. And you're like,

[00:24:24] David: yeah, that's so Joanna Stern, who's a very famous journalist over at the wall street journal, tech journalist. She's been around forever. She did her iPhone 16 review. And instead of writing her, she always does something weird. Like she literally, when they came out with the dynamic Island, she literally went to an Island to do the review.

Like, she's just, this

[00:24:45] Gary: that's kind of fun.

[00:24:46] David: She's really fun. She took the vision pro skein, like they, and there's only because she's a wall

[00:24:51] Gary: it looks like ski goggles.

[00:24:52] David: They rented out the part of a mountain because it's so unsafe to ski. So they had her just surrounded by people, but only the wall street journal would have that anyway.

So this year she did AI. She had AI write her review and she said very clearly, this is AI. She made a bot called the Joanna bot that could answer any question you wanted. And. She said by the end of it, she ended up having to write her own review to feed the bot. So she didn't save any time at all. She ended

[00:25:23] Gary: a double or work.

[00:25:24] David: yeah, she said it was doing two or three times and the end result Was not it was fine but and I think a lot of people and I think the And we've talked about this before but the linkedin bros and all these people talking about how ai will change everything It really won't.

It's a great augmenter, but it's not going to do anything. And that's I, anybody who believes otherwise right now, you're being sold something. And you know what I'm saying? Anybody who's saying you could do just put these three things together and it'll just do it for you. That was a lie. Just a flat out lie,

[00:26:00] Gary: And I do like how now that the term bros refers to anybody peddling like BS online

[00:26:06] David: Oh, crypto

[00:26:07] Gary: or over hyping stuff. Yeah. Finance bros, crypto bros, AI bros.

[00:26:13] David: Deep connection to all the crypto guys. When that blew up, they all became AI guys. Like they just saw another way to resell the script.

[00:26:21] Gary: exactly.

[00:26:23] David: I hate that. I do like AI. We are using it. It is very neat. But

[00:26:28] Gary: Anytime we have a podcast without guests, we always end up back on AI for

some 

[00:26:33] David: Yeah, it's the hotness. I will say, my last thing on AI, I did use it to help rewrite our core values recently. I had written what I want to do. Cause that's, if you haven't done that before your mission statement, that is a deep, like from the gut kind of kind of exercise. It's exhausting to write that down. Cause it's meaningful. And I had thrown out what I wanted to, but I was like, this is what I'm trying to do and I grabbed it and it just reworded and wordsmithed it really well.

And then I went back and did my own thing, but it was very helpful in that. That's

[00:27:09] Gary: Yeah. And that's something where you could do that. Like, and you say like, give me 15 versions just so you have a bunch to look at. Span the gamut. From this kind of tone to this kind of tone. And then you can pick and choose like, so

[00:27:22] David: that was handy. That was the first time I'd actually

[00:27:24] Gary: give you the best one first.

Like it's not going to just be like, here's your final answer, but it's

[00:27:28] David: I would also evaluate it. I thought that was cool. Like one thing I'm bad when I write, I often write in a passive tense, which is not as engaging. And you want something to be more active when you're talking about, especially like core values and, you know, mission. And it was very good about that.

This, Hey, this might be better making more, a little more punch. It was pretty cool. Anyway. All right. We got to go. We got work to do.

[00:27:51] OUTRO: Hi, I'm Christy Pronto, Content Marketing Director here at BigPixel. Thank you for listening to this episode of the BizDev Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email, hello at thebigpixel. net. The BizDev Podcast is produced and presented by BigPixel. See you next week. Until